ACEGACEG C6 on Lap Steel...playing blues / minor? Theory/practical question?

[Doug Anderson]

I have a theoretical type question. My music theory knowledge is pretty good and I'm trying to understand this from a theory and practical perspective.

I have an 8 string lap steel tuned to C6 (ACEGACEG from lowest sounding string to top).

When folks play blues with this tuning, they tend to play the blues from the key of C and move the chords / scales / etc from there. Curious why folks do this instead of using the key of A . With the ACEGACEG tuning, the open position is the minor A7 chord using the ACEG. The open strings are NOT a C minor chord so why do folks tend to play blues from the key of C.

I hope someone can understand what I'm trying to ask because I'm not certain I"m asking it very clearly.

[Noah Miller]

There are a lot more songs out there in major keys than minor ones, though every once in a while I do use the relative minor third as the "main" tuning.

[D Schubert]

I do that, not only on lap steel but also guitar and mandolin, for a blues in A with a primarily pentatonic melody. The Am7 and C scales lay in the same fingering/bar positions. Maybe I'm not understanding the question?

[Doug Anderson]

There are a lot more songs out there in major keys than minor ones, though every once in a while I do use the relative minor third as the "main" tuning.

That makes sense. Thank you!

[Doug Anderson]

I do that, not only on lap steel but also guitar and mandolin, for a blues in A with a primarily pentatonic melody. The Am7 and C scales lay in the same fingering/bar positions. Maybe I'm not understanding the question?

Thank you!

[Jim Fogarty]

If you think of string 1, 2 and 3 as the top 3 strings of dobro tuning, there's a TON of great licks and learning material out there.

[Steven Wilson]

One thing I like about C6 tuning (or A6) is that if you move up 3 frets from the open position, or any straight bar position, you will have a minor triad for that chord on strings 2,3,4 or 6,7,8. In other words, if you want a Cm chord in C6 tuning, move to the 3rd fret and play strings 2,3,4. I got a lot of value out of fretboard diagrams (Lessons with Troy is a good source) in understanding this. You can't get that one-position triad in open G dobro tuning. That said, I don't think anyone chooses C6 tuning because they plan to always play in the key of C (if I understood your post), and C6 may not be the best tuning for strictly playing blues. But it certainly works once you understand the fretboard and movable patterns. Hope that helps.....

[Doug Anderson]

One thing I like about C6 tuning (or A6) is that if you move up 3 frets from the open position, or any straight bar position, you will have a minor triad for that chord on strings 2,3,4 or 6,7,8. In other words, if you want a Cm chord in C6 tuning, move to the 3rd fret and play strings 2,3,4. I got a lot of value out of fretboard diagrams (Lessons with Troy is a good source) in understanding this. You can't get that one-position triad in open G dobro tuning. That said, I don't think anyone chooses C6 tuning because they plan to always play in the key of C (if I understood your post), and C6 may not be the best tuning for strictly playing blues. But it certainly works once you understand the fretboard and movable patterns. Hope that helps.....

That's helpful information. Thank you!

I am a member of Lessons with Troy and his lessons are awesome.

[George Piburn]

To get the Blues going on C6 is the best idea for playing Blues in my litle opinion.

Try dropping the high G and replace it with a D string, (1 step lower than the high E)

[Tucker Jackson]

One thing I like about C6 tuning (or A6) is that if you move up 3 frets from the open position, or any straight bar position, you will have a minor triad for that chord on strings 2,3,4 or 6,7,8.

Yes, indeed. And it's not just the C6 tuning. On ANY instrument, if you start in the major scale fret, playing a major scale... and then move up 3 frets, you can play the same pattern, only now you have notes from the natural minor scale.

If you want to play, say, a bluesy minor pentaonic thing (a 5-note scale), you would just select the correct notes. You're basically leaving out 2 notes from that pattern.

[Fred Treece]

With ACEGACEG, the only note missing from the A minor/C maj pentatonic scale in a nearly 2-octave range is D. How could that not be a great tuning for playing blues? Plus, there are single notes and diatonic chords or chord fragments in many locations over a 12-fret span.

1st thing is to drop the high G and replace it with a D string, (1 step lower than the high E) to learn the modern means to what Buddy E Herb Remington Doug J paul franklin and all of the other greats called chromatic.

Why did they call it a chromatic? That’s not what a D note is, in C6 tuning. It’s a re-entrant placement, but it’s not chromatic.

[Michael Kiese]

Yup. Use both.

The “gear shift” is in your head.

If you’re playing a major blues, think C major position. If you’re playing a minor blues, think A minor.

But honestly, when’s the last time you played a blues to a live audience that wanted to hear it? Blues are more for jam situations when you’re playing in a room full of musicians.

Most songs that people love and recognize are in major keys, so you’ll get much more mileage thinking from the Major Key perspective.

I can’t think of a nostalgic song the likes of Rainbow Connection, Sleepwalk, what a wonderful world, etc that is in a minor key.

So if you want the practical answer, studying minor stuff on steel will be purely for your own intellectual benefit and satisfaction. If you’re cool with that, then all is good. Don’t be pulling those songs on paid gigs unless you’re an established act and people are paying tickets to specifically to see you perform.

[Fred Treece]

I’m sorry, but what? Did blues music just suddenly go out of style?

Also.
Playing minor pentatonic scale tones over blues progressions in major keys is kinda the essence of the whole idea. Major pentatonic tones are not “blue”, but they can be a bit flirty.

If I have misunderstood, ‘scuse me for livin’.

[Rich Ertelt]

With the exception of open strings, the tuning or key doesn't matter.

I don't play a huge amount of blues on lapsteel (though I've done it), but a LOT on regular guitar, slide in open tunings. In a lot of different keys. And again, except for open strings, the key doesn't matter.

Blues is more modal, it is often played minor over major chords, but you can play the major 3 as well, in a major key.

[Michael Kiese]

I’m sorry, but what? Did blues music just suddenly go out of style?

Lol. Dude, what rock have you been living under?

Blues is about as in style as doo-wop and poodle skirts.

1950 called, it told me to tell you its 75 years old.

Blues is so out of style that only white people play it now, and they go to college to learn how to play it.

What do modern young people have to be blue about? Banana Republic ran out of khakis?

[Fred Treece]

Guess you’d like to tell Jon Batiste, Keb Mo, and Robert Randolph to pack up their outdated shlock and get outta town.

The OP asked a legitimate question and deserves the few solid answers that have been given here.

PS - I apologize for my part in taking this thread into the Facebook Dropout gutter. I am self-exiling henceforth.

[Ken Dangerfield]

The attitude on display in some places here is off the track. Disappointing.

[Gary Spaeth]

for the key of c find your c notes on frets 3, 5 and 8 and then find your pentatonic scale from that starting point. the 8th fret starting point is really rich since the minor third is on string 5 same fret then string 4 2 frets up is the 5 and the b7 is string 3 also 10th fret. then your root is 2 frets up on s3. if your 1 string is d then root is also on the 10th fret which is why it's a great tuning for blues. 8 and 7 strings on the 10th fret are also 5 and b7. lots of great stuff happening between frets 8, 10 and 12. do this procedure for finding pentatonic notes in the other c note locations then move in and out of these locations or what they call pockets. fun stuff. i forgot the 4 is also on s4 at the 8th fret.

[Tim Toberer]

I see everything I play as blues. Blues are life. If it isn't a "blues" song I am trying to make it one. It simplifies things to look at them as just tension and resolution. I guess I never even thought about if it is in style or not LOL, who even cares!

For me the challenge is finding the minor pentatonic sound in the Major position and similarly Major in the minor. That is the real beauty of the blues, it isn't just happy or sad it is the blend of the 2, just like real life. On standard guitar I can easily mix the 2, but I still really struggle with this even on my pedal steel where I can just change the tuning from major to minor. Theory can only help so much. One exercise I have been doing is I will sit with my standard guitar in my lap and play a phrase and then try to play that phrase on the steel without thinking about anything but the music. It helps to have a console guitar. Half the time I don't even know what key I am in. Some things transfer easily, other times I am trying all kinds of funky stuff to make it happen!

[Michael Kiese]

Guess you’d like to tell Jon Batiste, Keb Mo, and Robert Randolph to pack up their outdated shlock and get outta town.

The OP asked a legitimate question and deserves the few solid answers that have been given here.

PS - I apologize for my part in taking this thread into the Facebook Dropout gutter. I am self-exiling henceforth.

I stand by what I said as very pragmatic, solid advice. If you want to play for yourself, and for your own enjoyment and your own personal growth, play whatever you want.

Look at the demographic of the audiences of the few remaining blues artists out there, it’s a sea of silver haired people. In 10 years, those silver haired audiences will disappear. More and more disappear everyday.

I deeply believe in practicing music that you love and enjoy, but can ALSO reliably perform in front of people. For steel repertoire, it’s best to choose repertoire that evokes warmth and nostalgia, which in my opinion is what lap steel is best at. When you perform regularly in front of live audiences, that’s the best experience for learning and honing the craft of music.

Practice what you will perform.

So yes, I’m doubling down that studying minor blues on lapsteel is extremely low on the priority list of performance material the common man will enjoy sitting down and listening to.

Study Minor Blues for your own enjoyment and growth, but don’t expect the general public to want to listen to it.

That is directly apropos to the OP subject matter.

Lastly, I’ll reiterate that there’s nothing wrong with playing for your own personal enjoyment. That said, music is so much more fun when you share it, and play with others. You get much more mileage out of strategically picking your repertoire.

[Mike Neer]

I think the OP’s question is a good one, and I think it really leads more to an answer about understanding the blues itself more than anything specific to steel guitar.

The blues is at the core of everything I do, being raised playing rock and roll and jazz, and I believe having a deep understanding of blues vocals and the very subtle nuances of the way notes are bent to evoke maximum emotion is at the core of it. For that very reason, using open strings is not necessarily the most effective way of getting expression out of the instrument. But if you’re wondering how blues/jazz artists decide when to use minor or major tonality in their playing, that is what keep the blues a mystery. There should be no strict reliance ona major or minor 3rd. It’s the same with the 5th—it really draws out the emotion and gives definition to what the blues is.

I am into exploring blues the way Ellington, Charlie Parker, Monk, Mingus and Oliver Nelson and most other great jazz artists played it: I study the way they stretched and reinvented the harmony. But even when doing this, you still have to keep in mind that the blues is not only a musical structure, but a vehicle for great expression.

You can find the blues performed in almost every genre of western music—whether it’s Western Swing, Hawaiian, Bluegrass—you name it. Listening to the music carefully and studying those subtles expressions is the key to learning how to play blues, or at least in a bluesy manner.